PDP vs ODP?

Discussion in 'NorCal Scene' started by folsomsoccermom, Aug 27, 2015.

  1. soccercritique

    soccercritique Member

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    That sucks...Like I said...in the older age groups they don't pay for anything other than their ticket. it's VERY nice. Not sure if I'd do PDP if it was the same platform as ODP. I will say that PDP (in years past) has a better showing of quality players than ODP.
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  2. FindTheNine?

    FindTheNine? Member

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    Only in NorCal is the pdp pool stronger. Outside of NorCal there is no pdp and the best players do ODP. ODP has events, which are well run and highly attended by colleges and scouts. Pdp takes teams to play in club tournaments, maybe once a year. It's not even close to what ODP offers on a national level. But most parents in NorCal don't know that because the coaches don't tell them because NorCal does not want it's players participating in ODP, and would prohibit it I suspect if they could.
  3. soccercritique

    soccercritique Member

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    I totally agree...but with an * next to it. The first year is the strongest year for ODP nationally. After that first initial year, most of the top players (especially evident in Socal and Texas) don't return because ECNL gives them the same exposure in not better, than ODP. all of these platforms are NOW money makers for organizers. You can't tell me that it costs 1000 dollars for a kid for 3 days in Phoenix. Cal-North is making money head over heels. To each his/her own! ;)
  4. FindTheNine?

    FindTheNine? Member

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    You're right. It does drop off at older ages, but not completely. Really the ecnl girls don't need any outside platform. If I was in NorCal not doing ecnl and wanted to play in college I would try out for ODP every year though. And I also agree that they are making some money. I just wish NorCal coaches would encourage kids to do ODP when it's in the kids best interest.
  5. dk_b

    dk_b Well-Known Member

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    The clubs did do that but that was because ECNL gave the clubs and conferences flexibility to handle scheduling as they saw fit. Up here, it meant that SRU was playing very few games in the fall (2?) and the rest in spring while the winter HS season clubs were more balanced between fall and spring (I know you know that). But if USSF simply says, "we don't care", they are just saying, "We will change the structure and then make CIF and the other states' equivalent bodies be the bad guys and say you can't play club while playing HS" unless USSF also allows the same scheduling flexibility that ECNL allows.

    I think there will be an impact, don't get me wrong. But I'm not assuming success or failure of any one program - I think we won't know until the colleges decide to choose one program over the other for scouting and the girls going GDA are cool with what they get in exchange for what they give up (the unknown proving better for them than the known). That may take a while in Northern California BUT, in other markets (even SoCal where not every player becomes a national team player), there still may be some adjustment as well and I am not as certain as some on this tread that GDA will be the obvious winner.
  6. FindTheNine?

    FindTheNine? Member

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    You could be right. Time will tell. NorCal sure hopes you are right. I hadn't given a lot of thought to it, but it is a blow to the league to have many, possible most in a few years, of the top players not playing in their league any more.
    I'm not sure college coaches have to choose. I suspect what you'll see is the GDA coaches having to sell their kids hard these first few years while they establish credibility, then college coaches will take from GDA based on seeing a game or two, and continue to go to ecnl events, just looking for fewer kids while they are there. But who knows.
  7. dk_b

    dk_b Well-Known Member

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    I think the key will be those recruiting budgets and what the athletic departments will support.

    If USSF puts together a quality program in the GDA, that will be great. My biggest gripes may remain - HS (should be parent/kid choice, not organization, not club, not team), 4x/week structured practices (at some point, we do need to ask "what is too much" and consider the data on overuse (ACLs are considered to be "overuse" injuries by many sports docs)), longer events (so more missed school) - but if the program is quality and has an impact of more quality being spread throughout our region, then I will be the first to say so. My older kid will not be impacted by this at all but my younger 2 will be, whether or not they are ECNL/GDA/NPL/Premier quality, so long as they continue in competitive soccer.

    Many on this board feel quite certain of one outcome or another. I don't.
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  8. FindTheNine?

    FindTheNine? Member

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    I agree with everything except the ACL comment. They are an overuse injury in girls, but from too many games not from training. If they planned to scrimmage 4 days a week I would agree with you. Research shows many of these tears are preventable when proper conditioning is combined with fewer games. The statistics on control group ACL prevention using these methods are pretty staggering.

    http://smsmf.org/smsf-programs/pep-program

    Other good information:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3702781/

    There are other reasons I think 4x week is stupid (homework? social life?) but the ACL concern is not one of them.
  9. dk_b

    dk_b Well-Known Member

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    A theoretical training model - practices and games - with thoughtful prevention (including building the right muscles, teaching proper movements, giving proper rest - can do a lot to reduce the risk of ACL tears (especially those resulting outside of contact). But while research shows that there can be risk mitigation (can't really say "preventable" though I know often the literature does - and I have read both of those before in addition to speaking to numerous PTs, orthos, trainers, etc.), that assumes "proper conditioning" and proper volume of playing time (games and training). So we are not in disagreement to this point.

    Here's where we disagree - there are very few youth programs that address the "proper conditioning" variable. Yes, they often do fitness days, they may do a warm-up and cool down, may have a PEP-based training program and/or do the FIFA 11. But all the way? No. 4x/week + games IS too much unless done properly (and I question whether pubescent and just-post-pubescent girls are the right group for even a "proper" program). Those muscles DO get tired. The hammies DO get sore and can't provide the buffer to those over-developed quads. And knees DO (or will) blow. Are great assurances of "proper" conditioning part of what those many "A" licensed coaches in the GDA programs promise? Will they have on-site licensed trainers and physical therapists and do pre- and post-season assessments? 4x/week is a lot of hours on still-developing muscles.
  10. FindTheNine?

    FindTheNine? Member

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    4x week is not too much physically for 14+ with good nutrition and rest, and assuming the training is structured properly. In fact, kids that age should be physically active 75+ minutes per day every day of the week. You are assuming the kids are not being trained properly. With that assumption, we agree. And, besides, I already said that mentally it is just wrong to have these kids in a same/same/same structured deal 4 days s week anyway. Maybe the mandate is a reflection of the general lack of true physical fitness of American kids, even at the elite level.
  11. dk_b

    dk_b Well-Known Member

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    75 mins per day is not the same as 90 mins of elite soccer training. And, yes, I am assuming that few proper programs exist that can implement elite training for 14yos w/o risk of overuse. In fact, the increasing injury rates suggest exactly that. The PEP program is not new and, yet, ACL rates remain high.

    We are not in disagreement at all about the fundamentals of the point. And I don't disagree with your assertion that 4x/week is not too much "with good nutrition and rest, assuming the training is structured properly." But that is a HUGE assumption. After all, these are teenage kids. And the assumption presupposes that 70+ clubs of however many athletes can execute proper training AND have their athletes be properly fed, rested (as in sleep), treated, etc. I don't like to come down with absolute statements - it WILL fail, it WILL succeed, it WILL be good, it WILL be bad - but I just think the many variables are an enormous obstacle that makes 4x/week training more likely than no to be unhealthy (the other reasons you mention - schoolwork, social lives, down time - are important, too)
  12. FindTheNine?

    FindTheNine? Member

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    I'm just being argumentative. I agree, it is too much. None of these people in it for money know what they are doing and none of them implement the ACL prevention they should be at this level for women (we call them girls but their physiology is women, and their ACL tears are a woman problem, not a girl problem).
    Bottom line US Soccer is hijacking these girls and causing them harm in the long run. The US soccer idiots will be scratching their heads in 10 years wondering why their teams suck.
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  13. ECNL

    ECNL Well-Known Member

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    US soccer is all about $$$ and control......CIF is about control...... Our girls should have the freedom to do whatever they want when they want.
  14. psyclone

    psyclone Member

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    And that the coaches aren't idiots, and are sufficiently in tune with the player's bodies and fatigue levels that they will back off at the appropriate times.

    There are lots of coaches who fit that qualification, but a lot more, even with A licenses, that don't.
  15. kickinthegrass

    kickinthegrass New Member

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    Do not waste your time and monry with odp. Program is very unorganized and they could care less about kids and it is all about money. Coaching staff are bunch of low level trainers that will not teach your kid anything new or good and teaching wrong thing can even harm your kids development. Not to mention total lack of mangement has open the door for some coaches to take advantage of th e program for personal gains. Finally the talent level in girls program has gone down so bad that second team of most good clubs can easily beat them.
  16. respectthegame

    respectthegame Member

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    So with GDA restrictions, i.e. no pdp or odp, does this mean that more spots open up ?
  17. soccercritique

    soccercritique Member

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    I don't think you'll quite see a huge amount of spots open up but give it 2-3 years and I'm sure the landscape of PDP will definately change.
  18. NorCal Soccer

    NorCal Soccer New Member

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    PDP ‘03/‘04 vs Japan Football Association last night in San Ramon. Game finished in a 2-2 tie. Here are some highlights that NorCal put out:
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  19. ECNL

    ECNL Well-Known Member

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    nice. I watched Japan kids years back. one thing to note is they had no subs and were younger. They were very impressive. very technical.
  20. soccercritique

    soccercritique Member

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    Looks like a fun experience. I remember when they first started doing this a few years ago, Japan would be whoop up on PDP teams. I wasn't there, but from watching just the clips that I did, you can clearly see the technical superiority of the Japan team vs. the PDP team. More combo's, shots on goal and the only shots PDP took were 1v1's and not much else that created opportunities for their team, unlike their Japanese counterparts. Also, it's interesting to note how physically bigger PDP kids were than Japan.

    Like I said before, USA is slowly losing it's foothold BUT will continue to stay high on the rankings because they're superior athletes, top to bottom. It'll be interesting to see in the next 5-10 years how much closer other countries close the gap. All in all, this is about the experience and looks like kids had a fun time!
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